and your point is???
以下是引用LeslieNg在2002-10-20 20:44:38的发言：
我的有限认知，烟斗定价大致分两个阶段，或者说，从两种角度入手：
1) 按木质、大小、饰面等等基本指标定价。例如：Castello Collection 往往会比 Searock 昂贵，Dunhill Root 与 Dunhill Tanshell，Dunhill ODA 与 Gr.2 的关系亦然。
2) 在以上条件为基础，也就是说，建立在以上基本平台上，烟斗的价值体现，已经到了高度欣赏性和收藏性的范畴，这时，木纹的完美也许成了决定性、主导性的指标了。例如：Dunhill DR ** 与 ******，Castello Collection KKKK 与 Castello Collection KKKK Fiammata。到了这时，“尺寸大小”这项指标有时会被忽略。
$.02
[此贴子已经被LeslieNg于2002-10-20 20:44:38编辑过]
在下愚见，烟斗价格是不是也包括制作人的报酬，在国外手工业者的报酬是很高的，在手工业中如果是大师级别的，报酬更是不得了。举个例子，在德国大师级的手工业者工作45分钟，可以拿到大约100欧元的报酬甚至更高，那么一只价格在400--500欧元的手工烟斗，从这个价格中刨除报酬和村长的以上两点，剩下的就是实用价格了，和普通的机制斗差不多。从现在的制作工艺上讲，只要是名厂出的烟斗不会出现技术上的缺陷。难道50欧元的烟斗会积水烫舌，再多花50欧元就不积水烫舌了。
精致昂贵的烟斗，我认为，首先要把她当作艺术品才回去买，如果讲究实用，40-50欧元的就够了。这就看购买烟斗是用来抽的还是用来show的。
另外还有一个问题，在下和斗友私下讨论过，就是国内普遍认为的300--400人民币的入门烟斗，还有一条法则：中国大陆比台湾贵，台湾比国外贵。斗友们可以自己算一算，这种300--400人民币的烟斗在欧洲是多少欧元。在德国一只机制烟斗价格大约在40欧元左右比如STANWELL， SAVINELLI....再便宜的斗很难找到了，而且在下怀疑低于40
I believe that a pipe does not need any type of grain to smoke well.
But smoking quality does not encompass all that there is in smoking pleasure........ Our smoking pipes are part of us, they reflect who we are, they are true friends. Far be it from me to tell you, the reader, what type of finish you should set your sights on. In ending I can say only this: the smooth finish shows nature’s perfection; the sandblasted pipe lets one feel nature; the carved finish brings one closer to the craftsman.
http://www.rdfield.com/Articles/Grain.htm 这里有些文章值得一读。花纹并不影响吸烟的质量，但是原料的处理影响一定很大，所以dunhill的油处理法属于商业机密，Ashton因为对材料的处理甚至超过了dunhill（dunhill使用一种油，Ashton使用3种），也位列最佳吸烟质量之前茅。但是Ashton很少有漂亮的木纹，但价格却不低，这也许就是烟斗本身的价值。当然，还有另一类烟斗，以外形取胜，产量低，一年200－300之间，以丹麦为例，就有很多这样的品牌，应属于收藏之列，至于吸烟质量，还有待历史印证。
我个人更倾向于材质的本身。300美元的dunhill shell和100多美元的SAVINELLI Virginia在吸烟质量上也确实有差别，最起码同时从新斗开始使用是不同的，同样一斗early morning，用不同的斗在前半段和后半段味道有明显的差别，当然还不知一年以后在吸烟质量上这两只斗是否还有差别。
所以呢，价格应有两种，艺术价值：如丹麦手工斗和机器斗的差别。内在的质量，吸烟质量的区别。一分钱一分货还是应该有些道理的，不然百年的企业如何能生存到今天。
Hello guys.I am new here, so nice to meet you all.My Chinese is not very good, so I will just go ahead and write in English, if you don't mind.I agree with most of you, but there remain the question why people (or collectors for that matter) spend hundreds or even thousands on a pipe.The answer is pretty easy, supply and demand.In other words, the rarity of the pipe.Take for example a Bo Nordh pipe, which command prices upward of $2000 from the lowest grade sandblast to almost five figures in US$ if you can find one for sale.I don't know if you guys have heard of him, but he is considered the best pipe maker alive in the world.The reason why his pipe command such a ridiculous price, but yet sold out whenever available, is due to the fact that he makes probably the smallest amount of pipes of any pipe artisans.The last I heard, he makes only about 30 a year nowadays, due to his physical condition and health (he is on a wheelchair).With probably half of them going to Japan, there isn't much left for us the common people.Not to mention, people who can afford his pipes are pretty well-off in the first place, so it is scarce that any of them would sell their collections.Considering his age, many assume he won't be making pipes for too long now.
As for his pipes, his creativity and influence are unmatch by any living pipe makers.His talent is surpassed only by the legendary late Sixteen Ivarsson, his mentor when he was still alive.He introduced many spectacular shapes that can be seen on todays pipe making, especially in pipes made by the Great Danes.
As for the grain on a pipe, personally I believe it makes a different in the smoking characteristic of a pipe.The grain dissapaited heat.That's why it is a no-no to buy a pipe with bald spot, because it tends to burn hotter and might risk a burn out.To give you an idea, I've experimented with the notion that pipes with crossgrain(Birdseyes) smoke cooler that others(straight and flame).Of all my pipes this is true to a certain degree, depending on my mood at the time of smoking.One other thing worth mentioning, the tighter the grain the older the briar, which can only mean one thing, the older the briar the cooler it smokes(unless if it was not cured properly)
That's my two cents on the subjects.I hope they can be of help.
Peace
可是cross cut其實只是把straight grain或flame grain轉個90度鑽洞而已啊! 為什麼會有差別?
還有我一直對木紋鬆/緊與木頭的幼/老這種說法存疑. 假設你的煙斗是以plateau做成, briar在這部分木紋呈放射狀, 所以木頭愈靠近burl的外圍(plateau top的部分)木紋應該愈鬆散; 而木頭愈老burl愈大, 所以老木頭做成的煙斗木紋應該非常鬆散才是. 如果你再把木頭的appearance考慮進去, 愈年青的木頭木紋應該愈直(regular, 少有彎曲,), 所受傷害的機會應該愈小, 所以sand pit, crack...等的數目應會愈少...
糟糕, 沒想道我一時間的突發異想竟導出與conventional wisdom完全相反的謬論!
PS: 你又是Cohiba又是Montecristo的, 小心我Punch你!
(pun intended)
以下是引用montecristo在2003-4-18 1:21:00的发言：To give you an idea, I've experimented with the notion that pipes with crossgrain(Birdseyes) smoke cooler that others(straight and flame).Of all my pipes this is true to a certain degree, depending on my mood at the time of smoking.One other thing worth mentioning, the tighter the grain the older the briar, which can only mean one thing, the older the briar the cooler it smokes(unless if it was not cured properly)
LOL!That's a good one, Thym.Coincidentally, those are three of my favorite Habanos :)
As to the grain, if you check the post above by lixin regarding the article about grain from RDField site, it did not say grain does not make a different.It simply said "a pipe does not need any type of grain to smoke well".In other word it is possible for a pipe with good(tight) grain to smoke better otherwise.
First of all, we have to agree that the grain on briar dissapate heat.It is common knowledge that a good pipe should have good and even coverage of grain, regardless of direction, with no bald spot(no grain).If we agree on that issue, then the more grain the merrier.It doesn't take a genius to understand the logic.If the grain releases heat when smoke, then how does it do it?My guess is at the opening of the grain, which are the two ends of the grain.I notice this phenomenon with my old Stanwell.It hasbeautiful tight birdeyes, but the crossgrain was at 90 degrees.When I smoke the pipe, the hottest parts are where the birdeyes shown compare to the straight grain.This proves to a certain degree that the side where the birdeyes are located release heat more than part without.This occurance is less obvious when you have perfect crossgrain, because due to the shape of the bowl (round) the straight grain is minimal, so the heat is distributed evenly.To prove my point, find a pipe of yours with grain similar to my stanwell and pay attention to the heat.If you have a panel with crossgrain, that's even more obvious.Of course this subject is bordering on the subjective, since not everybody is as picky as me :(
On the topic of briar burl, I have to disagree.You see the grain in a burl is similar to ring grain in a tree.That's it, they are marks of age.Hence the more and tighter the grain, the older they are.As to ebauchon and plateau, it is too complicated to understand how nature works.But it is a fact that a plateau has more even and straighter grain than the inside of a burl. Most high grade pipes on the market nowadays use only plateau, why, because it has more chances ofproducing a beautiful straight grain pipe.Occasionally, an ebauchon will also produce a pipe with tight and straight grain, but it is quite rare.Since it is a hit and miss with an ebauchon, why risk hours of labor to come up with pipes with mediocre grain.Look at Dunhill's history, it is easy to understand.Dunhill used to only produce pipe from ebauchon, since the company didn't care how the grain looked as long as they were no flaws and bald spot.But that was long time ago when briar burls were abundant.Nowadays, to make high grades such as the DR, Collectors, Limited edition pipes, Dunhill uses only plateau to achieve the quality in term of grain.I rest my case.
I hope this is entertainning to you and other members.Peace.
繞一圈回來
煙斗是手段 煙草是目的
為了要分辨音響的好壞 我往往忽略音樂的本質聽不到chopin的細緻Beethoven的熱情
Bach的奧妙
Taipei
嘿嘿, 什麼時候回的帖? 竟然沒被我發現!
以下是引用montecristo在2003-4-20 2:33:50的发言：
As to the grain, if you check the post above by lixin regarding the article about grain from RDField site, it did not say grain does not make a different. It simply said "a pipe does not need any type of grain to smoke well". In other word it is possible for a pipe with good(tight) grain to smoke better otherwise.
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我覺得你從"a pipe does not need any type of grain to smoke well" (一個煙斗不需要任何種類的木紋來使它變的好抽)導出"it is possible for a pipe with good(tight) grain to smoke better otherwise"來有點奇怪. 從"一個煙斗不需要任何種類的木紋來使它變的好抽"這句話裡我只能意會到David Field指的是: 不管是straight grain, cross grain, random grain或是no grain, 不管木紋的鬆緊, 都有可能製造出好抽的煙斗......
以下也是引用montecristo在2003-4-20 2:33:50的发言：
First of all, we have to agree that the grain on briar dissapate heat. It is common knowledge that a good pipe should have good and even coverage of grain, regardless of direction, with no bald spot(no grain). If we agree on that issue, then the more grain the merrier. It doesn't take a genius to understand the logic. If the grain releases heat when smoke, then how does it do it? My guess is at the opening of the grain, which are the two ends of the grain.
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可是你全部的邏輯都建立在"the grain on briar dissapate heat"這個大假設上. 而我從來沒有聽過足夠的理論, 証據來說服我"木紋是可以導熱的管徑"這個假設. 此外, 假設這個假設(木紋是可以導熱的管徑)成立, 我也不認為這效果, 差別有大到"人"能夠輕易地察覺的程度.
以下又是引用montecristo在2003-4-20 2:33:50的发言：
I notice this phenomenon with my old Stanwell. It has beautiful tight birdeyes, but the crossgrain was at 90 degrees. When I smoke the pipe, the hottest parts are where the birdeyes shown compare to the straight grain. This proves to a certain degree that the side where the birdeyes are located release heat more than part without.
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不太清楚你的Stanwell是什麼情形, cross grain不都是呈90度切的嗎? Anyway,表面的溫度高固然是一個散熱的indication, 但有太多的variable會造成煙斗表面各部的溫度差異. 如: 木頭的密度不一, 斗壁的厚度不一, 煙草的裝填各部的鬆緊不一...... 等, 這些變因你都沒有把它考慮進去.
以下還是引用montecristo在2003-4-20 2:33:50的发言：
This occurance is less obvious when you have perfect crossgrain, because due to the shape of the bowl (round) the straight grain is minimal, so the heat is distributed evenly. To prove my point, find a pipe of yours with grain similar to my stanwell and pay attention to the heat. If you have a panel with crossgrain, that's even more obvious. Of course this subject is bordering on the subjective, since not everybody is as picky as me :(
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我認為你說的"有birdseye panel(方的)煙斗, 這種情形比較明顯"是因為tobacco chamber都是圓的. 如果煙斗的外型是方的, 那這一"外方內圓"就會造成斗壁的厚薄不均, 使你感覺到煙斗表面各部的溫度有差異.
以下也還是引用montecristo在2003-4-20 2:33:50的发言：
On the topic of briar burl, I have to disagree. You see the grain in a burl is similar to ring grain in a tree. That's it, they are marks of age. Hence the more and tighter the grain, the older they are.
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我不認為石楠木的木紋和樹的年輪是一樣的. 樹的年輪大致呈同心圓, 是樹幹生長的痕蹟(一年樹幹長一層, 年輪加一圈). 石楠木的木紋呈放射狀, 我無法想像一年的石楠木burl只有一條grain, 然後這burl是先長成扇型, 再長成半圓型, 最後再長成圓型(長成圓型後grain要再往那兒長?). 甚至 ,樹的年輪的疏密也和樹的年紀也沒有很大的關係. 樹愈老, 樹幹愈粗, 年輪愈"多"; 樹的生長環境愈差(好像是水份愈少, 我記不太清楚), 樹幹長粗的速度較慢, 所以年輪愈"密".
以下仍然是引用montecristo在2003-4-20 2:33:50的发言：
As to ebauchon and plateau, it is too complicated to understand how nature works. But it is a fact that a plateau has more even and straighter grain than the inside of a burl. Most high grade pipes on the market nowadays use only plateau, why, because it has more chances of producing a beautiful straight grain pipe. Occasionally, an ebauchon will also produce a pipe with tight and straight grain, but it is quite rare. Since it is a hit and miss with an ebauchon, why risk hours of labor to come up with pipes with mediocre grain.
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我不認為做煙斗原料的ebauchon和plateau是石楠木burl的不同部位(inside/outside of the burl), 我部份的argument在這裡(第二段). Ebauchon和plateau的不同在於ebauchon是按型狀切(像把馬鈴薯"切丁"), plateau是按木紋切(像切蛋糕一樣). 另外, 我所說的"plateau top"指的是附有樹皮的木塊.
以下依舊是引用montecristo在2003-4-20 2:33:50的发言：
Look at Dunhill's history, it is easy to understand. Dunhill used to only produce pipe from ebauchon, since the company didn't care how the grain looked as long as they were no flaws and bald spot. But that was long time ago when briar burls were abundant. Nowadays, to make high grades such as the DR, Collectors, Limited edition pipes, Dunhill uses only plateau to achieve the quality in term of grain. I rest my case.
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打死我也不會相信Duhill這種說法. 這些英國人啊, 煙斗做的不怎樣, 唬爛倒是不打草稿. 你真的相信:
[案例1]Dunhill用plateau(或dead root, 反正就是比較貴的那一種)做了一隻煙斗. 完美, 可是有很多小sand pits. 你覺得Dunhill會-
(a)把它拿去當柴燒! (b)反正噴沙過後就看不出來了, 拿去做Shell!
[案例2]Dunhill用ebauchon(或green briar, 反正就是比較便宜的那一種)做了一隻煙斗. 運氣好, 超完美無暇疵. 你覺得Dunhill會-
(a)我已經決定要做Shell了, 噴沙! (b)開什麼玩笑? 把那個北斗七星的印章給我拿來!
奉勸各位, 如果聽到有人拿木頭的種類, 產地, 部位, 死活...... 等作文章, 趕快去check你的唬爛偵測器.
[此贴子已经被作者于2003-8-5 9:12:57编辑过]
以下不是这个颜色的文字是引用悲剧王子在2004-5-19 17:39:56的发言：
我觉得您可能是“艺高人胆大”，平时抽烟斗的方式都是“冷火慢抽”，斗钵不烫，温度区别不大，就体会不出来热量的区别了（我在测试的时候用热火快抽，这样斗壁会很烫，差别很明显）。另外您可能对“热导”和“热阻”概念不是特别清楚，而且事实上“热导很小”这个状况更能加强了我的理论。
“热阻”是“热导”的倒数。换句话说，如果热导变成了1/4，热阻就变成了4倍。木头的导热系数如果是零点零几，那么它的热阻系数就是好几十了。众所周知木头属于“隔热”材料而非“导热”材料，两种隔热材料的热阻差别如果有4倍，那可是一个很大的数字了。可惜现在没有现成的不同材质的热力分布图片
呵呵, 雖然我不認為抽煙斗的方法有什麼對與錯, 不過若是抽的時候故意催得很燙, 煙斗是很有可能燒壞的. 因此如果可能的話, 一般人都會盡量避免讓煙斗(尤其是其中的一部份地方)變太燙.
我有點被搞糊塗了. 你說的"两种隔热材料"指的是什麼? 我們原來不是在討論木紋走向和散熱和抽起來不燙的關係嗎? Anyway, 我還是保持我對木紋走向和散熱對我們所抽的"煙"的熱度只有小到可以忽略的看法. 煙草的切裁, 裝填, airway和缽的關係和抽煙斗的"人", 對煙和煙斗的溫度的影響都要比木頭本身要大的很多很多.
我認為唯一會被木頭影響到溫度的是煙斗缽壁. 但要盡量避免燙手, 最簡單的方法就是把缽壁做的很厚, 或是在木頭外面包層皮或軟木(這樣還可掩蓋不漂亮的木頭). 把雞蛋全部集中在木紋這個uncertainty很多的方面, 我覺得是有點mad scientist-ish, 賭注太大了.
很多烟斗（不太好的斗，例如我的）纹路不均，可能左边是火焰纹右边是鸟眼纹。我就用这种斗测试的。只要同一个斗同一平面有不同的纹路，就可以进行我的测试。而且这种斗一般不贵，烧一下不心疼。
這就牽涉到我說的木紋的uncertainty. 木紋並不一定是表面看來怎樣, 裡面的"夾心"就怎樣. 工整漂亮的表面下, 有可能有sandpit或木紋轉方向甚至沒木紋. 此外還有許多如煙草的裝填airway和缽的關係... 等無法控制的變因.
斗壁薄散热快。如果你认为钵底的热量应当跋山涉水从斗顶部散出我就没话说了。斗底薄自然是要让热量就近散出，这样的设计完全是合理的。另外，见到了这种斗，一般的思路是手持斗壁的上半部吧？
我當然不會認為熱會跋山涉水. 但大部份人拿煙斗是依照自己的習慣, 而不會看到煙斗想說- 這支要拿上面, 這個型式的要拿左邊... As a matter of fact, 同一支煙斗不同人各有不同拿法 有人五指緊扣, 有人用手掌托著, 有人勾著shank, 有人挾著stem... 我認為Dublin不切實際的原因是多數煙斗燒穿的地方都是在缽下面的1/3, 而Dublin在做的時候如果沒注意(很多製做者都不注意), 這個地方會變太薄. 另一個危險的造型是Bulldog, 它的問題是在缽正下面.
1：功率（燃烧提供的能量）＝隔热层加温+从隔热层表面散发的热量
换句话说当烟斗温度稳定之后，从斗身散发的热量等于燃烧提供的热量，内部各个点恒温
同意, 如果我們是在討論實驗室中的理想狀況...
2：木头热阻大（热导小），保温性能强。但是顺着纹路热阻是平行纹路的热阻的1/4
换句话说内部热的传递慢，从斗壁到手的传热也慢
這個我不太了解, 可以再白話點嗎? 另外cross cut或甚至360 bird's eye怎麼辦?
3：产品成品的本身的功能，不能依赖于使用者的身体
换句话说烟斗本身的散热不能靠使用者的身体（手）。不能在脱离使用者的手的情况下很容易烧穿。
?? 那麼如果我們裹著濕毛巾抽煙斗是否就可避免燒穿? How about流手汗?
4：据您的提醒多考虑了“干燥”方面。水容易顺着毛细孔散出。
理論上如此! 不過光靠木紋不可能產生人可察覺的impact. 積水的問題在煙斗上, 預防重於治療(木頭吸水).
5：烟斗制作问题属于“工程问题”，一般而言要考虑各方面的平衡，很难说哪个（种）是“最好的”。
我覺得煙斗的製做上, 原料和技巧是基礎, 工藝和創作是advance course. 從"煙斗歷史上", 太鑽牛角尖地追求科學上的細節撇步, 如Dunhill的擋風缽, Airstream; Folcan的冷凝管; Striker的Long Draw; Freedom Pipe...等, 至今還沒有過成功的例子.
沒想到這帖子竟變成物理討論. 啊, 我普物的噩夢(非常低空地飛過)......
[此贴子已经被作者于2004-5-20 15:43:59编辑过]
我昨天又想到，一个好斗做出来，应该要让吸斗者用最简易的抽吸方式尝出最复杂的味道，这样就要考虑“燃烧稳定”，“散热均匀”、“吸水长久”等等。如果抽吸方式完全相同，烟草质量相同，而上半斗和下半斗（都是前半斗）的燃烧差别明显，使得从烟草里挥发出来的东西因热量而不同，那就说明这个斗做得不稳定。于是品质就差了……
好的产品一般要有几个性质，例如说“稳定性”……